one of my colleagues also left behind some stuff at the Westin -- I wonder what it was about this LSM seminar that made that a multiple occurance.... :-o

I do like the Harry Potter books, but I am getting tired of it.

1) Lots of stuff happens

2) We lead you through it if you are a child

3) We tidy up all the details in dumbledores office in case anyone didn't make the proper connections.

And the 5th book just starts to get drearily negative.

Don't get me wrong -- i like the series, I just wish she would step her writing up a notch or two. And stop writing scenes that are obviously made for the upcoming movies. :)

Have fun on your trip. Get home safely and soon. :)

I seem to remember warning you about the Harry Potter books and their addictive nature. Heh. Glad you enjoy them.

I found the 5th book dark, too. Rowling says that was deliberate, and after re-reading it I think I see her point. She does a very good job of transferring Harry's feelings onto the reader, and Harry is very angry, depressed, and all around unhappy in the 5th book (for good reason, with some age-appropriate teenage angst tossed in as well).

In general, I think they're excellent *children's* books. Rowling isn't perfect as a writer, but her imagination is brilliant. The fact that the books can be enjoyed by 9 year old children as well as 39 (*ahem*) year old adults speaks very well of them. And it would be pretty surprising if we adults couldn't find any flaws.

ed - maybe the palm tungsten giveaway distracted us!

dave - dumbledore's office, hehe, funny. and true. i like those scenes, hard pressed to find anything i don't like about these books, they are as good as they can possibly be for what they are.

rob - yeah, you and julian both, but it was too late i was already hooked. ;-) got to go and find a copy of book 5... need my fix! whatever will i do when i get done with that one!

See, that is my problem with Book 5.

these are *childrens* books. Hence the simplistic writings and so forth.

Why, oh why, would you put such dark content into a *children's* book?? Once oyu do that, the content alone makes it an adult book, and then your writing style is too juvenile.

Her whole long-term plot is too mature and dark for kids. She either needs to lighten up the content or write in a more mature style.

What's wrong with "dark" stuff in a book for older children? I haven't read any of the HP books, so I can't comment further, but as a child I was reading all kids of stuff, some of it pretty "dark."

Didn't do me any harm, oh no :o)

The darkness is increasing as Harry gets older. According to Rowling, the audience in her mind is Harry's age. So as Harry gets a year older with each book, so does the audience. The academic system in the books supposedly mirrors English schools, not US schools, so I'm not sure how old Harry is supposed to be (I should probably know that, but I don't remember her spelling it out exactly). In my mind, he's 16 in book 5, and 18 when the series finished in book 7.

PS I don't think I'd call the writing style juvenile. Unpretentious, certainly (unlike mine, for example...Heh...).

i was into marvel comics when i was a kid, the darker and the weirder the more i liked it. i still tend toward that kind of material, although i'm not much for horror (just not interested usually). in fact i didn't like dc comics because they weren't dark enough.

i can't help but think of michael moore's Bowling for Columbine. he went to canada, found millions of families with guns, but no one shoots one another up there. they see all the same media we do but somehow they aren't shooting one another. there are other countries too where they have all the same typical teen angst we see here, but they aren't shooting each other there either (japan and some other countries, can't remember now).

here in the US we like to blame a lot of stuff on the media / hollywood / etc. right wing politicians like to say that some of our problems stem from the media we consume. but this doesn't seem to hold water at all. in my mind the whole "bad media leads to bad kids" or criminal behavior or whatever is ridiculous. i listened to black sabbath and kiss and played a lot of Doom (although i was an adult, basically, by the time video games on computers came around) and i don't go around doing Bad Things.

anyway, i could rant about this for a long time so i'll stop now...

i do realize dave that most of what i wrote had almost nothing to do with what you were saying, rob was much more on point.

:-)

No worries. I think my point is being missed anyway. :)

It is the anger that bothers me. The dark, self-righteous anger. I think that is a dangerous emotion to be teachings children. They will learn enough anger and negativity on their own -- we do not need to feed it to them.

As far as the audience age gorwing with the characters -- thats fine and dandy. But then she can stop doing the 'summary' in dumbedores office. I find the ways she ties up plot points to be juvenile, not her language.

Again, I do like the series. Or at least the first 4. I just no longer feel that reading them is a positive experience.

You probably wouldn't like books 6 and 7, then, Dave. Wait for the paperback or library version at least! I hear they get more, not less, dark. And I doubt the plotting style in a wildly successful series will change - even if Rowling wanted to change drastically, I doubt the publisher would allow it.

I DO get your point. I just happen to disagree, that's all. Both points (the darkness/anger as a bad thing; and the immaturity of her writing style) are subjective, after all. People of good will can disagree about subjective issues without either of them necessarily being wrong, right? I'll see if I can explain my perspective better, though I'm not trying to change your mind - just presenting an alternative viewpoint.

I didn't think Harry's anger was self-righteous, I thought it was righteous. The problems he was facing were very frustrating, and the people with whom he was angry were as nasty a bunch as you can find. I did think his self-pity was suffocating at the beginning of the book, but I thought it was a good portrayal of teenage emotions (as I remember them, oh so long ago...). I also think that Harry, in general, is a good kid - he's learning how to handle those dark emotions, and children who go through that journey with him will be the better for it.

As far as the plot summary concern, I just don't see it as a negative, I'm afraid. But then I grew up reading Nero Wolf stories, which always ended in Wolf's office (well, with extremely rare exceptions), so I may be positively predisposed towards that sort of formulaic plot treatment. It's actually comforting. I like it.

I doubt you'll agree with me about any of that. I'm just describing a different perspective on those two issues. I'm curious to see what Mr jonvon's opinion will be, once he gets through book 5, too. By Monday, I'm sure...

As a mother of a three year old daughter I am bombarded by other mother's opinions about what shows, stories, dolls, toys, etc. are okay for children and why. Particularly about the impact of fairy tales and myths on children’s self-esteem. Instead of worrying about what kids are reading and watching, parents ought to be concerned about what behavior they're modeling and how corporal punishment and emotional abuse effects children’s self-esteem. I’ve listened to sanctimonious parents explain their children’s avoidance of specific shows or stories, yet they smack them around or “spank” if you prefer, then lock them in their rooms to cry alone. Spanking has got to be the laziest, cruelest, most thoughtless form of communicating with children possible. It’s what most children are taught by their non-Harry Potter reading, loving parents as normal. Is there really any wonder why American culture is sick and violent? John and I are a statistic in our neighborhood because we don’t spank – one out of five. It’s no surprise that our daughter is a statistic tool - one out of five children hug, kiss, laugh, imagine, dream and create with focus, innocence, fearlessness, fierceness, tenderness, brilliance and joy.

My experience with Roan has been very clear. She does what she sees John and I do. PERIOD. Her favorite show is "The Simpsons." She loves "The X-Files" and sits right down with us to watch “Smallville” and “CSI.” However, she doesn’t curse, hit, bite, or act like an asshole. She doesn’t have horrifying nightmares and she doesn’t think Bart Simpson is her hero. She does think Scully and Mulder are very nice and Superman is handsome, but who wouldn’t ;)? Although she has bad days like the rest of us, she is a very well-balanced, intelligent, extremely compassionate person because we respect, adore and nurture her the best we can.

Regarding Harry Potter books, thank God a writer has finally captured the hearts and minds of this generation’s youth with magic, myth and mystery. Children, teenagers and adults NEED to delve into the dark of the unconscious- this is made obvious by the slathering success of the Harry Potter novels. It’s the place where creativity begins and gods are born. So what if Harry’s angry? Don’t all people get angry? Aren’t teenagers particularly angry because of social, hormonal and all other kinds of issues? Rowling demonstrates a great deal of respect for her main audience by acknowledging their feelings and trying to reach them through Harry’s shared emotions. Being alive is HARD. Children are going to feel the pain of existence and there is nothing anyone can do about it, except be there with loving, patient, open arms and ears.

If I sound like an idealist, I am but not because of naivety or ignorance. After several years of studying world religions, mythologies and cultures I know there are healthier, more compassionate and intelligent modes of thought and living than mainstream U.S. culture offers. No one system is perfect, but trying to learn and embrace the best when possible makes life deliciously bearable and full of magic and wonder. Oh, and a great read is a fantastic shot in the arm, as it were ;).

well i'm into book 5 and i like it a lot. i don't find it overly dark yet at all. i can relate strongly to a lot of harry's emotions, the ones displayed thus far.

when i was roughly his age i had much of the same angst. i don't find his emotions suffocating in the least. i have actually wondered how rowling nailed it so well.

i guess male and female teen angst isn't as different as i thought it was (although i never really had an opinion or theory about the differences or similarities). also i think harry's emotional state is perfectly and wonderfully sane and realistic given the plot and the circumstances.

i also remember feeling a lot of intense anger toward my brother growing up, very similar to what happens between harry and his cousin. it is difficult not to feel a lot of anger when you grow up in a house where there is bullying going on. i won't get too much into how i grew up, but anyway i can relate to harry more and more as the story develops.

one of the things rowling brings out in the book, ironically given this thread, is that young people ought to be told the truth about things. they ought to be treated as people and not have the ugliness of life shielded from them. they are going to find out anyway, and often they know more about what is going on than adults do because of their curiosity. they haven't had the wonder of life beaten out of them yet. this of course is a major theme in all the books, one which i find refreshing. rowling is incredibly sane, a person i'd want very much to hang around with in real life.

i would also like to say that i am extremely proud and fortunate to be married to the woman i am married to. i love everything about her including her ideals. she lives them, and they are alive in her in a way that is rare in this world. i have said to my wife on several occasions, when you stand up, the earth stands up through you. where paula is concerned this is as True as anything i could say. she is a wonder; there is no one i have more respect for.

hehe.

Paula, I agree with you 100%, believe it or not. My statements are not directed at parents, and are not meant to tell them what to do with their children. It is my perspective on a book, and a description of why I do not choose to read it anymore. I doubt that I will read book 6 or 7.

I try to read material that is postive, uplifting, and edifying. I expect most childrens books to do that. I expect most spiritual books to do that. When they do not, I am disappointed. The last Harry Potter book was disappointing.

I think that this whole discussion is great to bring a number of perspectives. We don't all agree, and that is appropriate, as we are all different people. :)